Date of Incident:
Received:

]From quintanus-AT-hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 22:47:53 2001
]Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:05:02 -0800
]From: C P 



Hi,


Everything is a paraphrase based on my notes because I couldn't get
>every > word recorded, so some parts are actual speech, and others are just 
>the content of what was said that I was able to record so it comes across a 
>bit choppy.
>Present were Sean P., Jason Meggs and Christine P.
>In this meeting, we focused more on traffic enforcement issues than
>critical mass
>C: One enforcement issue that I have relates to a SF incident where
>I was> badly injured when someone opened a car door, and the police didn't
>want > to take a report. I realize that this isn't San Francisco, but I 
>wonder
>if > this comes up in Berkeley. M: Opening car doors is a very big problem. 
>We always take reports
>H: Two of our officers were hurt that way. A number of us bicycle to
>work > (lists their injuries).
>C: are there any reports of lack of report taking?
>M&H: Oakland and SF are bad that way. We are not San Francisco.
>J: I have some cases. I was deliberately hit by a tow truck from behind
>and wrote a two page report but the police refused it.
>M: really?
>J; other incidents were a cyclist with a broken collarbone when a bus
>driver ran the stop sign, but the police decided cyclist was at fault
>, > but he had no stop sign and the bus did. Also, there was a case where
>  a > cyclist was hit outside of a garage at Hearst and Gayley, and they
>said he was going too fast even though his knobby wheeled bicycle wasn't 
>capable
>of speed.
>M: 50% of accidents are the cyclists fault. There are a lot on
>hearst. Please report to your people that you NEED a white headlight.
>Lots> of people think that they just need a red blinker.
>H: you need lights on your rides
>J: Education is good
>M: If a car has no headlights, they forfeit their right of way even
>if the> other vehicle is making errors. If a car opens a door into you and
>you had> no headlihgt, you have no recourse because you will lose your 
>right
>of> way.
>C: A lot of these conflicts stem from the way that people learn to
>ride> bicycles as a toy and they are regarded as toys like roller blades
>where> the safest place is on the sidewalk or bike path.
>M: Yes. It's confusing because you learn to walk against traffic, but
>when> you turn 15 and ride in traffic, there are new rules.
>H: People going the wrong way in bike lanes
>J: We oppose one way streets
>C: I think that double parking is one of the most serious bike safety
>problems in Berkeley. SF is #1, but Berkeley is #2 in terms of number
>of> double parkers. You just don't see nearly as much of it in other urban
>areas, but people learn that it's acceptable here, but cars have a
>lot> less to lose if they collide while avoiding double parkers.
>H: There's not enough enforcement. I am highly irritated by double
>parkers> and I enforce it. Just earlier there were people double parked 
>near
>wells> fargo to buy lattes. Should be emphasized more.
>   Pedal express can use the unloading zones. Trucks have trouble finidng
>available loading zones due to people parked too long in them. He supports
>pedal express in loading zones.
>M: I always chastise people for their double parking
>H: We have to embarrass people by stopping them, or ticketing more.
>M: Yes, It is a $250 ticket to park in bus zones, and people still
>sometimes do that because they're so lazy. People think it's okay to
>double park if they stay in their vehicle, and will do that instead
>of> pulling into the red zone or a driveway
>M: Jason is right - my vehicle code incidates that there is an obscure
>law> that you should walk on the left side shoulder in rural areas.
>C: The problem is that big tickets don't hurt people with money, but
>really hurt people with little money.
>M: Yes they do. It's a big inconvenience. They definitely notice. I
>had a> woman who was breaking down crying yesterday on Claremont, but she
>was> speeding.
>H: Regarding Jason's email statement about the high priced tickets
>for> bicycle offenses (such as red light $270 ticket), and proportional
>risk to> cars. I agree that cycles don't pose as much danger in some cases.
>J: I'm glad to hear that
>H: I give warnings 2/3 of the time
>M: I just let a cyclist run a stop sign in front of me at 15mph yesterday,
>because the car at the intersection was stopped and wasn't so much
>of a> risk. I cited a pedestrian at Durant aand Telegraph who stepped out
>into> had a> woman who was breaking down crying yesterday on Claremont, but 
>she
>was> speeding.
>H: Regarding Jason's email statement about the high priced tickets
>for> bicycle offenses (such as red light $270 ticket), and proportional
>risk to> cars. I agree that cycles don't pose as much danger in some cases.
>J: I'm glad to hear that
>H: I give warnings 2/3 of the time
>M: I just let a cyclist run a stop sign in front of me at 15mph yesterday,
>because the car at the intersection was stopped and wasn't so much
>of a> risk. I cited a pedestrian at Durant aand Telegraph who stepped out
>into> the street and made 2 cars come to a stop.
>J:
>C: University and Bancroft are speed corridors where there limit is
>really
>25 but people go 40 and race between lights.
>M: Actually, they average 32 on university. We're doing pedestrian
>stings> where 4 officers pretend to be pedestrians. We caught 30 people in
>an hour> and a half.
>J:
>M: People on cell phones don't watch what is going on
>S: People hesitate from stepping out into the street because they can't
>be> sure, and then cars never start to stop for them.
>M: Yesterday an old lady refused to start to cross the street because
>she> felt unsafe even though I was there on my motorcycle on claremont
S: I have watched rollins ticket a lot of people.
>H: regarding your email about bicycle lanes, and use of discretion
>and> change of the fee schedule. Are you wanting us to use discretion, or
>give> reduced fees or offer special treatment?
>J: For instance, some people who ride on sidewalks are going at walking
>speed or slower to get to a bicycle rack, or are disabled, or just
>scooting along. Others are bad and are racing through and give cyclists
>a> bad name, but there is an eequal fine regardless of danger posed. Many
>cyclists will go through a stop sign at slow speed, but cars and bicycles
>differ in terms of danger. Some bicycle officers go the wrong way on
>a one> way street, just because it makes sense rather than going around an
>entire> block. Cycles don't pose as much stop sign risk when they slow but 
>don't
>stop. Idaho lets them yield and not stop. If they do REAL dangerous
>behaviors, then you should cite.
>M: It's scary, I agree with you Jason.
>  I do do that. I tend to let them go if there is no danger.
>   50% of bicycle accidents are the cyclists fault. Bicycles carry no
>insurance, and then cars get scratched, or get their windshield cracked
>( by bodies flying over the hood), and then they have to cover the cost
>themselves.
>M: Motorcycles and bicycles are the same. On 6th street a year or a
>few> ago, a truck pulled in front of me and I hit the brakes and had a 14
>ft> skid before I hit it, and I completely broke my jaw and my ankle, and
>now> I have 18 pieces of titanium in my face.
H: Judges set those fines. You should lobby them. I used to run the
>jail..
>J: I never heard of that. Davis law lets local jurisdiction set it.
>You> could set the bail at zero.
>H: The $200 bicycling on the sidewalk fine was set in '92
>J: I know of one in 95 or 96 that had $19 bail.
>H: I don't know what happened with that.
>J: Some people go slow on the sidewalk, or as a wheelchair . Can't
>you use> discretion. Only a few blast through.
>H: Go to the post office and watch cyclists on the sidewalk consistently
>irrtating people with strollers by the Y.
>H: We could or should install warning signs.
>J: If bikes are told not to use the sidewalk, why are bad cars told
>not to> use the roads?
H: How far do you want to go with this?
>M: The vehicle code/ DMV monitor cars. Bad car drivers with license
>revoked start to cycle, and are just as poor at navigation.
>J: There is a big gray area where someone isn't a pedestrian or cyclist,
>but might be scooting along or going 2mph. The harsh penalty for sidewalk
>cycling is out of proportion.
>M: Officer X is a very active cyclist. He does the Turkey Ride to raise
>money for needy people.
>H; Regarding the disparity in the bail schedule. I know some people
>don't> know the precise regulations, and I think this is a bit unfair. On
>a> larger scale, they must take this to the judge to sort out.
>M & J $271 red light fine - It makes sense to make bicycles an exception
>because the law wasn't written to address them.
>J: On July 25th, 1997, the Chronicle had an article about 1000 collissions
>(or deaths?) due to red light running that year.
M: 10 People are killed per day in California due to motorcars.
>J: Many die later on too, or are very disabled.
>M: There was a case where a cyclist said he was fine and didn't even
>want> a report. He had a headfall. The next day he died.
>I'm leaving
>C: Will you be there tomorrow.
>M: I will be there tomorrow. I am a nice person, even though we have
>had> our ups and downs, Jason. I know I'm an asshole sometimes.
>J: It is good to have officers doing diffusion of conflict.
>M:
>H: having motors is the crowd is an issue, but I think they're actually
>quite safe. The motorcycle officers are usually much better trained
>than> bike officers.
>C: Cyclists don't know how to react in a crowd when they go through.
M: I often need to get to the front so I pick a line and I go
>through. Cyclists often brake right in front of me. Slowing down is
>fine,> but please don't deliberately brake in front of me. I don't like to
>dump> my 800 lb bike. A sergeant recently completely broke his fibia in 
>training
>by putting down his foot.
>H: He will never be the same.
>J: I don't think motorcycles have the same leeway in a crowd. There
>are> some similarities between motor and bicycles, but they can't turn was
>well.
>C: I think that with regards to situations where you decide that you're
>going to ticket someone and they try to go ahead into the crowd, that
>you
>shouldn't try to take someone down so quickly. They can't really go
>anywhere. Go to the front of the crowd, and you could even stop them
on> foot later on up the road.
>M: They should stop. We were in court yesterday, and a participant
>got out > of a ticket, and I have no problem with that, and hold no 
>grudges.
>I try > to do the best job I can every day.
>J: first amendment. The end of the group going through a red light
>isn't
>as dangerous as a normal red light runner.
>H: What are you doing tomorrow?
>SJC: There might be an oil war theme, with a few signs. Things have
>gone > well the last few months.
>H: You know, that could incite motorists.
>J: The UC diversion program has some benefits - paying just $10 and
>having  a lecture.
>H: That sounds good.
>   We are Very Different from the UC PD.
>J: can you give an example.
>H. I don't think I have to give you any examples, Jason.
>C: I don't like pursuits through the crowd. I don't think that it's
>necessary to stop and cite people.
>H: We aren't going to be substantially different tomorrow from last
>month.
>J: How can we set up a diversion thing, or use of discretion.
>H: Ask if the commission or a judge would do this.
>J: Lieutenant Agnew!
>H: I will talk to him.
>
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